对话三十Talk 30.
纳特萨耶尔先生是南印度某镇的律师，是一名正统的婆罗门。他问：像大自在天和毗湿奴这样的神，和他们的圣域吉罗娑峰或栢昆塔*[Vaikuntha：毗湿奴的天宫，位于须弥山顶。]都是真的吗？
马哈希：如同你在这具身体里一样真。
纳：他们具有像肉身这样的庸常世俗谛的存在(vyavaharasatya)吗？或只是像兔角那样都是虚构的？
Mr. N. Natesa Iyer, the leader of the Bar in a South Indian town, an orthodox Brahmin, asked: “Are the gods Iswara or Vishnu and their sacred regions Kailasa or Vaikuntha real?
M.: As real as you are in this body.
马哈希：他们确实存在。
D.: Do they possess a vyavahara satya, i.e., phenomenal existence, like my body? Or are they fictions like the horn of a hare?
M.: They do exist.
纳：如果是这样，他们一定在什么地方。他们在哪里？
马哈希：见过他们的人说他们在某处存在。所以我们必须要接受这样的说法。
D.: If so, they must be somewhere. Where are they?
M.: Persons who have seen them say that they exist somewhere. So we must accept their statement.
纳：他们到底在哪里？
马哈希：在你之内。
D.: Where do they exist?
M.: In you.
纳：那就只是一种概念了，就是那种我可以创造和控制的吗？
马哈希：一切都是如此。
D.: Then it is only idea - that which I can create and control?
M.: Everything is like that.
纳：但是我能创造纯粹虚构的事物，比如兔角；或者部分真实的事物，比如幻像。可确实还存在与我想象无关的事实啊。那么大自在天或毗湿奴神的存在也是如此吗？
马哈希：是的。
D.: But I can create pure fictions e.g., hare’s horn or only part truths, e.g. mirage, while there are also facts irrespective of my imagination. Do the gods Iswara or Vishnu exist like that?
M.: Yes.
纳：他受制于世界消融*吗？
*[Pralaya：指印度教世界观中的“消融”，表示无有以任何形式存在任何活动的时间段。在每一个消融期，所有十四个色世界中，较低层的十个世界会毁灭；而在大消融期，全部十四个世界都会被摧毁。]
马哈希：为什么呢？人若了悟自性，就超越了消融，得到解脱(mukta)。那么智慧和功德远高于人的神（大自在天）为何不能呢？
D.: Is He subject to pralaya (cosmic dissolution)?
M.: Why? Man becoming aware of the Self transcends cosmic dissolution (pralaya) and becomes liberated (mukta). Why not God (Iswara) who is infinitely wiser and abler?
纳：天神和饿鬼*[Pisachas：一译毕舍遮，指食尸鬼。]也类似这样存在吗？
马哈希：是的。
D.: Do devas and pisachas (devils) exist similarly?
M.: Yes.
纳：我们如何能设想究竟的觉性(ChaitanyaBrahman)?
马哈希：如其本然。
D.: How are we to conceive of Supreme Consciousness (Chaitanya Brahman)?
M.: As that which is.
纳：它应被想成是自明闪耀的吗？
马哈希：它超越了光明与黑暗。个体(jiva)同时见到两者。自性照亮个体去见到明与暗。
D.: Should it be thought of as Self-Effulgent?
M.: It transcends light and darkness. An individual (jiva) sees both.
The Self enlightens the individual to see light and darkness.
纳：它是否应该认作是“我非色身，非做者，非享受者诸如此类”？
马哈希：何来这些念头？我们现在想着自己是人吗？不去这样想，我们就不是人了吗？
D.: Should it be realised as “I am not the body, nor the agent, nor the enjoyer, etc.”?
M.: Why these thoughts? Do we now think that we are men, etc.? By not thinking so, do we cease to be men?
纳：是否应该通过经文如“无有任何区别”*[《大林间奥义书》IV.4.19：唯以意会彼，斯世无异多。若见其多似，得死如流梭。]来觉悟它？
马哈希：这又是为何呢？
D.: Should one realise it then by the scriptural text such as “There are no differences here”.
M.: Why even that?
纳：如果我们认为“我即真实”，能成吗？
马哈希：所有的念头都不与实相相应。正确的状态是排除一切关于我们自身及其余所有的念头。念头是一回事，实相是另一回事。
D.: If we think “I am the real,” will it do?
M.: All thoughts are inconsistent with realisation. The correct state is to exclude thoughts of ourselves and all other thoughts. Thought is one thing and realisation is quite another.
纳：那么在修行过程中，是否有必要达到隐身，或者说至少这样是有好处的？
马哈希：你为什么去想这个？你是身体吗？
D.: Is it not necessary or at least advantageous to render the body invisible in one’s spiritual progress?
M.: Why do you think of that? Are you the body?
纳：不是。但是进阶的灵性必然令身体产生变化。难道不是吗？
马哈希：你期待身体上有什么变化，为什么？
D.: No. But advanced spirituality must effect a change in the body. Is it not so?
M.: What change do you desire in the body, and why?
纳：难道隐身不是智慧进步的证明吗？
马哈希：这样的话，所有在他人眼中说话、写作、过日子的人必然要被视作愚痴无智者了！
D.: Is not invisibility evidence of advanced Wisdom (jnana)?
M.: In that case, all those who spoke, who wrote and who passed their lives in the sight of others must be considered ignorant (ajnanis)!
纳：但智者如瓦西斯塔*[《瓦斯西塔瑜伽经》里开示王子的智者。]和蚁垤*[梵文Vālmīki，又译跋弥。古印度诗人，相传是《罗摩衍那》的作者，其身份不详，有传说是语法学家，或说古代仙人。相传蚁垤出身婆罗门家庭，因静坐修行数年不动，身上成了蚂蚁窝的小土丘，故以蚁垤为名。另一说法他原本是弃儿，被山中野人收养。成家后，以偷盗为生，专门抢劫朝圣者，后得一瑜伽士开导而出世修道。]都有这种能力啊？
马哈希：与智慧同时发展出这种悉地也许是他们的宿业*[Prarabdha 指过去世累积，而对现世起作用的业。]。这非本质，而且容易障碍智慧，你为什么要关注这个呢？智者会为自己身体是可见的而苦恼吗？
D.: But the sages Vasistha and Valmiki possessed such powers?
M.: It might have been their fate (prarabdha) to develop such powers (siddhis) side by side with their wisdom (jnana). Why should you aim at that which is not essential but apt to prove a hindrance to wisdom (jnana)? Does the Sage (Jnani) feel oppressed by his body being visible?
纳：没有。
马哈希：幻师可以让自己忽然隐身，他会因此而是智者吗？
D.: No.
M.: A hypnotist can render himself suddenly invisible. Is he therefore a Sage (Jnani)?
纳：不是。
马哈希：看得见和看不见都和观者有关。谁是那个观者？先解决这个。其它都不重要。
D.: No.
M.: Visibility and invisibility refer to a seer. Who is that seer? Solve that first. Other matters are unimportant.
纳：吠陀中有很多互相矛盾的宇宙起源说。一处说虚空是第一个造物；另一处说气（生命能量）才是；别处还有别的说法，比如水或别的什么。要怎样调和这些呢？这难道不会损害吠陀的可信度吗？
马哈希：不同的观者，在不同时间见到真相的不同侧面，每个观者都强调自己所见到的。你又何必为这些冲突的叙述而烦恼呢？吠陀的关键目的是教导我们真我的不灭本质，告诉我们，我们就是那个。
D.: The Vedas contain conflicting accounts of Cosmogony. Ether is said to be the first creation in one place; vital energy (prana) in another place; something else in yet another; water in still another, and so on. How are these to be reconciled? Do not these impair the
credibility of the Vedas?
M.: Different seers saw different aspects of truths at different times, each emphasising some one view. Why do you worry about their conflicting statements? The essential aim of the Veda is to teach us the nature of the imperishable Atman and show us that we are That.
纳：我对这部分是满意的。
马哈希：那么把其余的都当做辅助论述(arthavada)，或是为了那些寻求追溯事物起源的无知者所做的阐述吧。
D.: I am satisfied with that portion.
M.: Then treat all the rest as artha vada (auxiliary arguments) or expositions for the sake of the ignorant who seek to trace the genesis of things and matters.
纳：我是个罪人，不做护摩*[Homos护摩，一译火供。印度教宗教仪式，以火为中介向神供奉祭品祈愿。]。我是否会因这个原因来世受苦？祈请您救我！
马哈希：你为什么要说自己是罪人？你对神的信仰足以在转世中拯救你。把所有的负担都抛给他吧。
《圣言》*[Tiruvachagam:九世纪泰米尔诗人曼尼卡瓦克卡献给湿婆的赞美诗卷，为泰米尔湿婆悉昙《圣藏》(Tirumurai)的第八卷。]里说：“尽管我连狗都不如，您却慈悲承诺予我保护。生与死的妄想都由您维持。何况，我是能审查判断之人吗？我是此处的上主吗？哦，大自在天！用生死轮回驱赶我穿过各种身体，或是让我驻于您的脚下，都由您。”
因此要有信仰，那个会救你的。
D.: I am a sinner. I do not perform religious sacrifices (homas), etc.
Shall I have painful rebirths for that reason? Pray save me!
M.: Why do you say that you are a sinner? Your trust in God is sufficient to save you from rebirths. Cast all burden on Him. In the Tiruvachagam it is said: “Though I am worse than a dog, you have graciously undertaken to protect me. This delusion of birth and death is maintained by you. Moreover, am I the person to sift and judge? Am I the Lord here? Oh Maheswara! It is for you to roll me through bodies (by births and deaths) or to keep me fixed at your own feet.” Therefore have faith and that will save you.
纳：先生，我有信心，可我还是会遇到困难。在我开始修定之后，体弱和眩晕都在困扰我。
马哈希：恰当地进行调息(pranayama)能增强力量。
D.: Sir, I have faith - and still I encounter difficulties. Weakness and giddiness afflict me after I practise concentration.
M.: Breath-control (pranayama) properly performed should increase one’s strength.
纳：我有职业工作，可我希望能永久在禅定中。两者互相冲突吗？
马哈希：不会有冲突的。你同时练习两者，那么在你的力量更强后，两者都能达到。你可以先把工作看成一场梦。《薄伽梵歌》中说：“芸芸众生之夜，自制之人觉醒；芸芸众生醒来，具眼智者之夜。
D.: I have my professional work and yet I want to be in perpetual dhyana. Will they conflict with each other?
M.: There will be no conflict. As you practise both and develop your powers you will be able to attend to both. You will begin to look on business as a dream. Says the Bhagavad Gita: “That which is the night of all beings, for the disciplined man is the time of waking; when other beings are waking, then is it night for the sage who seeth.” (11.69.)
——出自《马哈希对话录》Talks with Ramana Maharshi
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