对话二十九Talk 29.
某个多云而平静的傍晚，下着濛濛细雨，天气有些凉。道场(asramam：高僧大德修行传法之地。)大厅关着窗，马哈希如寻常般坐在沙发上。弟子坐在他面前。有几位访客从古德洛尔(Cuddalore：位于南印度泰米尔南都东部的一座城市。)来。一人是地区法庭法官，陪同他的两位年长女士也在其中。法官开始谈及世俗事务变化无常，他问：“分辨实相和非实相是否能有效地带我们了悟不朽的那个？”
On another occasion, the evening was calm and cloudy. It was drizzling occasionally and somewhat cool in consequence. The windows of the Asramam Hall were closed and Maharshi was seated as usual on the sofa.
Facing him sat the devotees. Some visitors had come from Cuddalore. A Sub-Judge, accompanied by two elderly ladies, was among them. The Sub-Judge began the discussion as to the impermanence of all mundane things, by putting the question. “Has the discrimination between Reality and Unreality (Sat asat vicharana) the efficacyin itself to lead us to the realisation of the one Imperishable?”
马哈希：如一切真正的求道者宣说、了悟的那般，安住于究竟之灵(Braham nishta：直译为完成的（nishta）梵（Braham）。)才能让我们知道它，了悟它。它就是我们，在我们之内，任何分辨(vivechana)只能仅仅让我们前进一步，也就是让我们放弃，激励我们丢掉倏忽即逝的表象(abhasa)，并紧紧抓住永恒的真实和当下。
之后对话转向询问神之加持对于达到全然的遍在(Samrajya) 是否是必需的，以及单靠个体灵魂诚实而勤奋的努力，是否尚不足以让他达到那个，不再回到生死之中。马哈希带着妙不可言的微笑，抬起他神圣的脸庞，照亮身边的人群，用坚定的语调宣说真实之音：“神圣的加持对于觉悟是必要的，加持把人带向神之觉悟。但是这种加持只会赐予那些在通往自由之路上不停艰苦努力的真正虔信者或瑜伽士。
M.: As propounded by all and realised by all true seekers, fixity in the Supreme Spirit (Brahma nishta) alone can make us know and realise it. It being of us and in us, any amount of discrimination (vivechana) can lead us only one step forward, by making us
renouncers, by goading us to discard the seeming (abhasa) as transitory and to hold fast to the eternal truth and presence alone.
The conversation turned upon the question as to whether Iswara Prasad (Divine Grace) is necessary for the attaining of samrajya (universal dominion) or whether a jiva’s honest and strenuous efforts to attain it cannot of themselves lead him to That from whence is no return to life and death. The Maharshi with an ineffable smile which lit up His Holy Face and which was all-pervasive, shining upon the coterie around him, replied in tones of certainty and with the ring of truth; “Divine Grace is essential for Realisation. It leads one to God-realisation. But such Grace is vouchsafed only to him who is a true devotee or a yogin, who has striven hard and ceaselessly on the path towards freedom.”
访客：瑜伽书里提到有六个轮穴。但又说是在心中。到底是怎样的？
马哈希：据说熟睡时灵魂留在心里，清醒时在脑中。不必把心当做是有四个房室，推动血液的肌肉洞穴。确实有论述支持这种观点。还有人用它一系列神经中枢或是那块区域的神经中心。对我们而言，这两种观点谁对谁错并无所谓。我们不关心那些与自己无关紧要的东西。我们有的那个确实是在我们之内。对它无有任何疑惑, 也不需要讨论。
吠陀和经文中用心来指“我”见涌现的地方。它只是从那个肉团中涌现的吗？它确实从我们之内，从中间的某个地方升起。这个“我”没有居所。每件事物都是自性。只有那个，没有其它。所以必须说心是我们的整个身体，是整个宇宙，却被认知为“我”。不过为了帮助修行者，我们必须要在宇宙里，或在我们身体里指出某个特定的地方。于是心就被指为自性所在之座。但实际上，我们无所不在，我们都是它，仅此而已。
D.: There are six centres mentioned in the Yoga books; but the jiva is said to reside in the Heart. Is it not so?
M.: Yes. The jiva is said to remain in the Heart in deep sleep; and in the brain in the waking state. The Heart need not be taken to be the muscular cavity with four chambers which propels blood. There are indeed passages which support the view. There are others who take it to mean a set of ganglia or nerve centres about that region. Whichever view is correct does not matter to us. We are not concerned with anything less than ourselves. That we have certainly within us. There could be no doubts or discussions about that.
The Heart is used in the Vedas and the scriptures to denote the place whence the notion ‘I’ springs. Does it spring only from the fleshy ball? It springs within us somewhere right in the middle of our being. The ‘I’ has no location. Everything is the Self. There is nothing but that.
So the Heart must be said to be the entire body of ourselves and of the entire universe, conceived as ‘I’. But to help the practiser (abhyasi) we have to indicate a definite part of the Universe, or of the Body. So this Heart is pointed out as the seat of the Self. But in truth we are everywhere, we are all that is, and there is nothing else.
访客：据说必须要有神圣的加持，才能成功达到无散乱识心(三摩地)。是这样吗？
马哈希：我们是神(大自在天)。视自己为神(IswaraDrishti)本身就是神圣的加持。所以我们需要神圣的加持来获得神的加持。
马哈希微笑，所有的弟子和访客也都一起大笑。
D.: It is said that Divine Grace is necessary to attain successful undistracted mind (samadhi). Is that so?
M.: We are God (Iswara). Iswara Drishti (i.e., seeing ourselves as God) is itself Divine Grace. So we need Divine Grace to get God’s Grace.
Maharshi smiles and all devotees laugh together.
访客：在神的加持(Iswaraprasadam)之外，还有神的恩惠(Iswaraanugraham)，是这样吗？
马哈希：能想到神这本身就是神的恩惠！他的本质就是加持(Prasad，Arul)。因为神的加持你才能想到神。
D.: There is also Divine Favour (Iswara anugraham) as distinct from Divine Grace (Iswara prasadam). Is that so?
M.: The thought of God is Divine Favour! He is by nature Grace (prasad or arul). It is by God’s Grace that you think of God.
访客：上师的加持是神加持的结果吗？
马哈希：为何要区分两者？上师和神是同一个，和神没有区别。
D.: Is not the Master’s Grace the result of God’s Grace?
M.: Why distinguish between the two? The Master is the same as God and not different from him.
访客：当已经去努力过上正确的生活，把念头专注在自性上时，却常常遭遇失败或中断。要怎么办呢？
马哈希：最后都会好的。在每一次失败和中断之后，会有一种稳定的冲动，让你决心再一次开始。渐渐地，障碍都会克服，你的相续也会变得更强。到最后一切都会好的。所需要的是持久的决心。
D.: When an endeavour is made to lead the right life and to concentrate thought on the Self, there is often a downfall and break. What is to be done?
M.: It will come all right in the end. There is the steady impulse of your determination that sets you on your feet again after every downfall and breakdown. Gradually the obstacles are all overcome and your current becomes stronger. Everything comes right in the end. Steady determination is what is required.
——《马哈希对话录》Talks with Ramana Maharshi。
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