对话三十三Talk 33.
访客问：商羯罗尊者常说“究竟之灵(梵)是真实的。世界(jagat)则是幻觉”。但还有人说“世界是真实存在的”。谁说的对？
A visitor: “The Supreme Spirit (Brahman) is Real. The world (jagat) is illusion,” is the stock phrase of Sri Sankaracharya. Yet others say, “The world is reality”. Which is true?
尊者：两种说法都对。他们对应的是不同阶段，是从不同的角度来说的。修行人从定义字句开始。若他把真实的定义为永远存在的，那么他会视世界为非真实而排除掉，因为世界是变化的，它不可能是真实的。“非此，非此！”最终参问者达到自性，发现“一”才是真知。然后会发现，在开始被否定的，曾被认为是非真实的，也是“一”的一部分。世界融在实相中，也是真实的。在自性觉悟中，只有在(being)，没有别的。
此外，实相一词也用来指不同的含义，会被一些思想家粗略地用来指称对境。他们说折射(adhyasika)的实相可分成不同的程度，分别名为：
一.庸常俗谛(vyavaharika satya)：这把椅子我看得见，是真实的。
二.幻显俗谛(pratibhasika satya)：盘着的绳子被看成是蛇。这种显现对认为是蛇的人来说，是真实的。在某个时间，某些条件下，这一现象会出现。
三.第一义谛(paramartika satya)：实相恒常不变，无有动摇。
所以，若宽泛使用实相一词，世界也可说成是有庸常俗谛和幻显俗谛两个层次。不过也有人否认日常生活的真实性，认为这只是识心的投射。他们认为日常生活只是幻谛。
M.: Both statements are true. They refer to different stages of development and are spoken from different points of view. The aspirant (abhyasi) starts with the definition, that which is real exists always; then he eliminates the world as unreal because it is changing. It cannot be real; ‘not this, not this!’ The seeker ultimately reaches the Self and there finds unity as the prevailing note. Then, that which was originally rejected as being unreal is found to be a part of the unity. Being absorbed in the Reality, the world also is Real. There is only being in Self-Realisation, and nothing but being. Again Reality is used in a different sense and is applied loosely by some thinkers to objects. They say that the reflected (adhyasika) Reality admits of degrees which are named:
(1) Vyavaharika satya (everyday life) - this chair is seen by me and is real.
(2) Pratibhasika satya (illusory) - Illusion of a serpent in a coiled rope. The appearance is real to the man who thinks so.
This phenomenon appears at a point of time and under certain circumstances.
(3) Paramartika satya (ultimate) - Reality is that which remains the same always and without change.
If Reality be used in the wider sense the world may be said to have the everyday life and illusory degrees (vyavaharika and pratibhasika satya). Some, however, deny even the reality of practical life - vyavaharika satya and consider it to be only projection of the mind. According to them it is only pratibhasika satya, i.e., an illusion.
对话三十四Talk 34.YOGI RAMIAH’S ACCOUNT OF HIS EXPERIENCES
瑜伽士拉米亚说：坐在马哈希的临在中令心平静。我常常三、四个小时都安坐三摩地中，然后感觉到识心成形，从内里出来了。通过不断练习和禅修，识心进入心，且融入其中。我认为此心就是识心休息的场所。带来的结果是平和。当识心融于心，自性便得以了悟。即使在执持阶段 *[Dharana：专注集中。瑜伽经曰：“执持者使心住一处。”心住一处者，或在体内，如鼻端，或丹田，或住于在外之一物，如此则心不外驰而得坚定。]也能够感受到这种经验。
Sitting in Maharshi’s presence brings peace of mind. I used to sit in samadhi for three or four hours together. Then I felt my mind took a form and came out from within. By constant practice and meditation it entered the Heart and was merged into it. I conclude that the Heart is the resting place of mind. The result is peace. When the mind is absorbed in the Heart, the Self is realised. This could be felt even at the stage of concentration (dharana).
我向马哈希询问如何观修。他是这样教我的：当一个人死了,火葬所用的柴堆已经准备好了，身体平躺在柴堆上。柴堆点燃，皮肤先被火烧，其次是肉，然后是骨头直到整个身体化为灰烬。之后还留下什么呢？如果回答说是识心，就问“在这具身体里有几个识心呢？一个还是两个？”如果有两个，那为什么人们说“我”而不是“我们”？所以应该只有一个。那么它什么时候出生呢？它的本质(swaroopa)是什么？参问下去，识心也会消失。这样看起来剩下来的应该就是“我”。那么下一个问题就是“我是谁？”只是自性。这就是观修。我就是这样做的。
通过这个过程，对于身体的执著(dehavasana)被摧毁了。自我消除了，自性朗然独照。一种令识心消融(manolaya)的方法是和伟大的成就者——大瑜伽士们在一起。他们是圆满的三摩地成就者。对他们来说了悟自性一直都是简单、本然且恒久的。那些与他们相契，且能亲近常随的人，能逐渐从他们身上吸收到三摩地的习惯。
I asked Maharshi about contemplation. He taught me as follows:When a man dies the funeral pyre is prepared and the body is laid flat on the pyre. The pyre is lit. The skin is burnt, then the flesh and then the bones until the whole body falls to ashes. What remains thereafter?
The mind. The question arises, ‘How many are there in this body one or two?’ If two, why do people say ‘I’ and not ‘we’? There is therefore only one. Whence is it born? What is its nature (swaroopa)?
Enquiring thus the mind also disappears. Then what remains over is seen to be ‘I’. The next question is ‘Who am I?’ The Self alone. This is contemplation. It is how I did it. By this process attachment to the body (dehavasana) is destroyed. The ego vanishes. Self alone shines. One method of getting mind-dissolution (manolaya) is association with great ones - the yoga adepts (Yoga arudhas). They are perfect adepts in samadhi. Self-Realisation has been easy, natural, and perpetual to them. Those moving with them closely and in sympathetic contact gradually absorb the samadhi habit from them.
出自《马哈希对话录》Talks with Ramana Maharshi
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