对话二十八Talk 28.
弟子：调心念与调呼吸之间有什么联系？
马哈希：(智识性的)念头和(植物性的)活动如呼吸、循环等都是个体生命的不同侧面，都依赖于生命(或可比作居于生命，生命内具的)。个人认同和其它的思维概念以及生命活动都发源于此。若呼吸或别的生命活动被强迫抑制住，那么念头也同样会被抑制住。若念头被迫要放缓，定于一点，那么呼吸也会变缓，甚至保持在仅能维持生命的最低水平上。这两种情况中，各种散乱的念头都暂时停歇了。在别的情况下，两者的关联也同样明显。比如活着的意愿，其实就是念头的力量。这一力量会在别的生命力近乎耗尽时支撑维持生命，延迟死亡。若没有这种意愿力，死亡会加速到来。因此有人说是念头带着生命一起进入血肉之躯，并且把生命从一具肉体转移到另一具肉体中。
D.: What is the interrelation between regulation of thought and regulation of breath?
M.: Thought (intellectual) and respiration, circulation, etc. (vegetative) activities are both different aspects of the same - the individual life.
Both depend upon (or metaphorically ‘reside’ or ‘inhere’ in) life.
Personality and other ideas spring from it like the vital activity.
If respiration or other vital activity is forcibly repressed, thought also is repressed. If thought is forcibly slowed down and pinned to a point, the vital activity of respiration is slowed down, made even and confined to the lowest level compatible with life. In both cases the distracting variety of thought is temporarily at an end.
The interaction is noticeable in other ways also. Take the will to live. That is thought-power. That sustains and keeps up life when other vitality is almost exhausted and delays death. In the absence of such will-power death is accelerated. So thought is said to carry life with it in the flesh and from one fleshy body to another.
弟子：有什么可帮助达成专注，摆脱散乱吗？
马哈希：从生理上看，应避免让消化系统和其它器官受到刺激。因此对食物的数量和质量都要控制。应吃无刺激的食物，避免辣椒、过多的盐、洋葱、酒精及鸦片等；防止便秘、嗜睡和兴奋，以及一切能引发这些的食物。在精神层面上，对某一件事情产生兴趣，让心念专注其上。让这个兴趣占据一切，直到其余的事情都被排除出去。这就是离欲和专注。可以选择神或者咒语。识心获得力量去抓住那精微的，并融入其中。
D.: Are there any aids to (1) concentration and (2) casting off distractions?
M.: Physically the digestive and other organs are kept free from irritation. Therefore food is regulated both in quantity and quality.
Non-irritants are eaten, avoiding chillies, excess of salt, onions,wine, opium, etc. Avoid constipation, drowsiness and excitement, and all foods which induce them. Mentally take interest in one thing and fix the mind on it. Let such interest be all-absorbing to the exclusion of everything else. This is dispassion (vairagya) and concentration. God or mantra may be chosen. The mind gains
strength to grasp the subtle and merge into it.
弟子：散乱是与生俱来的倾向，也能够摆脱掉吗？
马哈希：是的。很多人已经做到了。相信这点！他们能做到是因为相信自己能做到。习气是可以被彻底消除的。通过专注于不受习气所限、却又是习气核心的那个，就可以做到这点。
D.: Distractions result from inherited tendencies. Can they be cast
off too?
M.: Yes. Many have done so. Believe it! They did so because they believed they could. Vasanas (predispositions) can be obliterated.
It is done by concentration on that which is free from vasanas and yet is their core.
弟子：这种练习要持续多久呢？
马哈希：直到目标达成，直到瑜伽解脱成为常态。成功为成功之母：若能克服一个散乱，下一个散乱也会被克服，如此这般，直到所有的散乱都被征服。这个过程就像是在消灭一个接一个冒出头的敌人，从而削减了整个敌人的力量。
D.: How long is the practice to continue?
M.: Till success is achieved and until yoga-liberation becomes permanent. Success begets success. If one distraction is conquered the next is conquered and so on, until all are finally conquered. The process is like reducing an enemy’s fort by slaying its man-power - one by one, as each issues out.
弟子：这个过程的目标是什么？
马哈希：证悟真实。
D.: What is the goal of this process?
M.: Realising the Real.
弟子：实相的本质是什么？
马哈希：一. 无始无终之存在——即常。
二.无穷无尽、遍及一切之存在。
三.为一切形体、变迁、力量、物质和精神背后之存在。纷繁(之现象)变迁消失，而唯一(之本体)永远持续。
四.此唯一取代了三分别，即能知、了知与所知。三分别仅是在时间和空间里的显现，实相在其背后又超越其上。三分别就像遮盖实相的幻境，是妄想的产物。
D.: What is the nature of the Reality?
M.: (a) Existence without beginning or end - eternal.
(b) Existence everywhere, endless, infinite.
(c) Existence underlying all forms, all changes, all forces, all matter and all spirit.
The many change and pass away (phenomena), whereas the One always endures (noumenon).
(d) The one displacing the triads, i.e., the knower, the knowledge and the known. The triads are only appearances in time and space,
whereas the Reality lies beyond and behind them. They are like a mirage over the Reality. They are the result of delusion.
弟子：若“我”也同样是一种幻觉，那么谁去清除幻觉呢？
马哈希：“我”来清除“我”之幻觉，还作为“我”留存。这是证悟自性的矛盾之处。觉悟者于中不见任何矛盾。以虔信为例—我接近大自在天*[梵文Iswara一译上主，上帝或伊湿伐罗。不二论吠檀多认为大自在天是究竟之灵、梵在人类识心中有限的显现。具有人类的特征如个性、父母种族。这是幻觉之境里的梵的倒映。真实意义上的梵并非可用这样的特征描述。]，祈祷能被摄入神。于是我就通过专注，在信仰中让自己臣服。之后还剩下什么呢？在彻底臣服之后，最初的“我”消失了，留存的是神，“我”丧生其中。这就是究竟虔信*[Parabhakti梵文 “至高的、究竟的（para）虔信（bhakti）”。]，彻底臣服*[Prapatti：梵文，表示印度教派中向神完全臣服的过程。]，或甚深离欲。
你会放弃“我拥有的”这个或那个东西。但若你能放弃“我”和“我的”，那么就一下子放弃了一切。“拥有”的最根本的种子消失了，因此恶也终止于萌芽中，或者恶的种子就因此粉碎了。需有极其强烈的离欲心才能做到这点。对修习此法的渴望，要如同没顶之人挣扎升上水面求生那般。
D.: If ‘I’ also be an illusion, who then casts off the illusion?
M.: The ‘I’ casts off the illusion of ‘I’ and yet remains as ‘I’. Such is the paradox of Self-Realisation. The realised do not see any contradiction in it. Take the case of bhakti - I approach Iswara and pray to be absorbed in Him. I then surrender myself in faith and by concentration. What remains afterwards? In place of the original ‘I’, perfect self-surrender leaves a residuum of God in which the ‘I’ is lost. This is the highest form of devotion (parabhakti), prapatti, surrender or the height of vairagya.
You give up this and that of ‘my’ possessions. If you give up ‘I’ and ‘Mine’ instead, all are given up at a stroke. The very seed of possession is lost. Thus the evil is nipped in the bud or crushed in the germ itself. Dispassion (vairagya) must be very strong to do this. Eagerness to do it must be equal to that of a man kept under water trying to rise up to the surface for his life.
弟子：难道上师或本尊[IshtaDevata：字面直译为 “所崇敬的(ishta)神(devata)“，用来表示礼拜者最钟爱的神。在虔信法门，表示最能启发修行人的神的形象。如在毗湿奴派中，特别关注毗湿奴某一个化身（黑天或罗摩）。]的帮助不能降低此事的难度吗? 他们难道不是可以带来力量，让我们如实见到自性，把我们变成他们，带我们进入自性觉悟中吗？
马哈希：本尊和上师都是助缘——修道上非常有力量的助缘。但是要让一个助缘起作用，你也得努力。你的努力是不可或缺的。是你要去见到太阳，眼镜和太阳能代你看吗？你必须自己见到你的真实本质。而做到这点并不要求有很多的助缘！
D.: Cannot this trouble and difficulty be lessened with the aid of a Master or an Ishta Devata (God chosen for worship)? Cannot they give the power to see our Self as it is - to change us into themselves- to take us into Self-Realisation?
M.: Ishta Devata and Guru are aids - very powerful aids on this path.
But an aid to be effective requires your effort also. Your effort is a sine qua non. It is you who should see the sun. Can spectacles and the sun see for you? You yourself have to see your true nature. Not much aid is required for doing it!
弟子：我的自由意志和全能者势不可挡之力之间是什么关系？
一、神之全知是否和自我的自由意志一致？
二、神之全能是否和自我的自由意志一致？
三、自然法则是否和神的自由意志一致？
马哈希：是的。自由意志是对于受限的观察力和受限的意愿而有的当前展现。同一个自我认为它过去的活动落入了一系列法则或准则中，而它本身的自由意志是法则中的一环。
于是，在自我看来，神之全知全能是通过神的自由意志显现而起作用。因而它得出结论认为，自我必须按显现而动。自然法则是神意愿的展现，已被神安设好了。
D.: What is the relation between my free-will and the overwhelming might of the Omnipotent?
(a) Is omniscience of God consistent with ego’s freewill?
(b) Is omnipotence of God consistent with ego’s freewill?
(c) Are the natural laws consistent with God’s free-will?
M.: Yes. Free-will is the present appearing to a limited faculty of sight and will. The same ego sees its past activity as falling into a course of ‘law’ or rules - its own free-will being one of the links in that course of law.
Omnipotence and omniscience of God are then seen by the ego to have acted through the appearance of his own free-will. So he comes to the conclusion that the ego must go by appearances. Natural laws are manifestations of God’s will and they have been laid down.
弟子：学习科学、心理学、生理学、哲学等等是否有助于瑜伽解脱之道;以及对唯一实相的直觉把握？
马哈希：非常少。有些知识对瑜伽有用，也可以在书里找到。但实修才是根本的东西，个体的实例、亲身的接触、个别的指导才是最有用的助道。对于第二个问题，一个人可以在理论上努力说服自己真理是直觉性的，那就是真理的功用和本质，但实际上直觉类似于感觉，需要实修和亲身接触。书本学习几乎不能带来大的作用。证悟之后，一切理智所得都是无用的束缚，要被丢入水中。丢弃自我是必需的，也是自然而然的。
D.: Is the study of science, psychology, physiology, philosophy, etc.helpful for:-
(1) this art of yoga-liberation.
(2) the intuitive grasp of the unity of the Real?
M.: Very little. Some knowledge is needed for yoga and it may be found in books. But practical application is the thing needed, and personal example, personal touch and personal instructions are the most helpful aids. As for the other, a person may laboriously convince himself of the truth to be intuited, i.e., its function and nature, but the actual intuition is akin to feeling and requires practice and personal contact. Mere book learning is not of any great use. After realisation all intellectual loads are useless burdens and are thrown overboard as jetsam. Jettisoning the ego is necessary and natural.
弟子：梦和醒有什么不同？
马哈希：梦里一个人可以呈现不同的身相，而当他梦到感官接触时，这些梦中身会再次进入这具肉身。
D.: How does dream differ from waking?
M.: In dreams one takes on different bodies, and they re-enter this body when one dreams of sense-contacts.
弟子：幸福是什么？幸福原存在于真我(Atman)中还是外物中，或是在主客体接触中？可是在我们的所作所为里见不到幸福。它是什么时候才真正出现的呢？
马哈希：当接触到悦意的事物或记忆，且离于不悦意的事物或记忆时，我们说这就是幸福。这种幸福是相对的，更应称为愉悦。
但是人想要绝对而恒常的幸福。这不存在于外物中，而是在究竟中。它是离于痛苦及快乐的平静——是中性的状态。
D.: What is happiness? Is it inhering in the Atman or in the object, or in the contact between the subject and the object? But we do not see happiness in our affairs. When does It actually arise?
M.: When there is contact of a desirable sort or memory thereof, and when there is freedom from undesirable contacts or memory thereof, we say there is happiness. Such happiness is relative and is better called pleasure.
But men want absolute and permanent happiness. This does not reside in objects, but in the Absolute. It is Peace free from pain and pleasure - it is a neutral state.
弟子：为什么说幸福是我们的真实本质呢？
马哈希：完美的乐即梵。完美的平静属自性。唯有它存在。它觉。用玄奥的义理来判断，或按虔信法门来推测皆能得出同样的结论。
我们向神祈求大乐，由神之加持得到乐。求乐者本身就是大乐并且无限。因此，大自在天是无限力量和大乐的人格化；梵是大乐，是非人格且绝对的。有限的自我源于梵及之后的大自在天，就其灵性本质而言只是乐。在生物学层面上，器官能够运作是因为这种运作伴随着幸福。
愉悦有助于我们的成长：食物、练习、休息和社交。愉悦的心理学(或抽象)意义或许是这样：我们的本质是一，是整体，是大乐。以此作为一种可能的前提，那么创世即是完整的神性分裂为神和大自然 (摩耶或原质*[Prakriti：指印度教中认为世界存在、运行的智性本质，是世界和一切所造物的基础。])。这个摩耶有两部分：令一切得以存在的要素(称为para),以及五种元素*[五大：地、水、火、风、虚空。]、识心、理智和自我(八支)(称为apara)。
自我的圆满无缺在某个点被忽然打破了，一种需求被感觉到，继而让想要得到什么东西或做什么事情的欲望升起。当欲望得到满足，那种需求得到了治愈，自我就高兴了，而最初的完美重又修复。因此，幸福可以说是我们的自然状态，或说是本然的。愉悦和痛苦都是相对的，只和我们受限的状态有关，并且会随需求满足而增长。若这种相对的增长停止了，灵魂融入了梵——即融入了完美平和的本质中——那么灵魂就不再有相对的、暂时的愉悦，而是享用完美的平静——本然之乐。因此，自性觉悟即是本然之乐，觉悟到自性是无限的道眼(智慧所见jnanadristi)，而非预见未来的神通。这是最高层次的自我臣服。
轮回(samsara)是苦。
D.: In what sense is happiness our real nature?
M.: Perfect Bliss is Brahman. Perfect Peace is of the Self. That alone exists and is conscious. The same conclusion is arrived at: (a) judged metaphysically, and (b) inferred by Bhakti Marga (Path of Devotion).
We pray to God for Bliss and receive it by Grace. The bestower of bliss must be Bliss itself and also Infinite. Therefore, Iswara is the Personal God of infinite power and bliss. Brahman is Bliss, impersonal and absolute. The finite egos, deriving their source from Brahman and then Iswara, are in their spiritual nature bliss only. Biologically, an organism functions because such functions are attended with happiness.
It is pleasure that helps our growth; food, exercise, rest, and gregarious qualities. The psychology (and metaphysics) of pleasure is perhaps this; Our nature is primarily one, entire, blissful. Take this as a probable hypothesis. Creation is by the entire Godhead breaking into God and Nature (maya or prakriti). This maya is of two parts: (para) - the supporting essence and (apara) the five elements, mind, intellect, and ego (eightfold).
Ego’s perfection is suddenly broken at a point and a want is felt giving rise to a desire to get something or do something. When that want is cured by the fulfilment of that desire, the ego is happy and the original perfection is restored. Therefore happiness may be said to be our natural condition or nature. Pleasure and pain are relative and refer to our finite state, with progress by satisfaction of want. If relative progress is stopped and the soul merges into Brahman - of the nature of perfect peace - that soul ceases to have relative, temporary pleasure and enjoys perfect peace - Bliss. Hence Self-Realisation is Bliss; it is realizing the Self as the limitless spiritual eye (jnana dristi) and not clairvoyance; it is the highest self-surrender. Samsara (the world-cycle) is sorrow.
弟子：为什么轮回，即受限的创造与显现，充满苦难和罪恶？
马哈希：神的意志！
D.: Why then is samsara - creation and manifestation as finitised - so
full of sorrow and evil?
M.: God’s will!
弟子：神为什么要这样做？
马哈希：神妙莫测。这个力量——这一无限、全知而全能的存在，不能将之归因于什么动机，不能断言要达成什么欲望和目的。神不被行为所及，行为都发生在神的存在中，就好比太阳和世间活动那样。在“一”成为“多”之前，用责任或是动机来解释这个一是没有意义的。但是对某些事物的发展规律，可以用神的意愿来很好地解释自由意志这一悬而未决的问题*[原英译本拉丁语vexataquaestio表示已经充分被讨论过，但答案仍未出现，且近期未来也不会出现答案的问题。]。若因为对发生在我们身上的事物，或是对我们所努力或所忽略的感到不完美、不满足，因此令心念不得休息，那么不如放弃掉责任感和自由意志的感觉，把自己看成是全知全能所主宰的工具，以他的意乐而行事、受苦。他负荷所有的担子，并且给予我们平和。
D.: Why does God will it so?
M.: It is inscrutable. No motive can be attributed to that Power - no desire, no end to achieve can be asserted of that one Infinite, All-wise and All-powerful Being. God is untouched by activities, which take place in His presence; compare the sun and the world activities. There is no meaning in attributing responsibility and motive to the One before it becomes many. But God’s will for
the prescribed course of events is a good solution of the free-will problem (vexata quaestio). If the mind is restless on account of a sense of the imperfect and unsatisfactory character of what befalls us or what is committed or omitted by us, then it is wise to drop the sense of responsibility and free-will by regarding ourselves as the ordained instruments of the All-wise and All-powerful, to do and suffer as He pleases. He carries all burdens and gives us peace.
出自《马哈希对话录》Talks with Ramana Maharshi -Sri Ramanashram Publication，妙高峰上经授权翻译
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